This episode is hosted by Boundaryless Conversation Podcast host Simone Cicero with co-host, Stina Heikkilä.

The following is a semi-automatically generated transcript which has not been thoroughly revised by the podcast host or by the guest. Please check with us before using any quotations from this transcript. Thank you.

Simone Cicero:
Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show today we are with Ana Andjelic from the US you know basically we are going to use Ana’s point of view and enormous understanding of what does it mean to build a brand in this world to confront about transformations in the evolution that the concept of branding is going through in these times and for sure these times of change times of the transformations of organizing and expectations and consumers and so on. But today it’s hard not to see these times as times of crisis. So Ana what do you think about how the role of brands is transforming in this modern economy in these times of crisis?

Ana Andjelic:
It’s a challenging time for everyone and I’ve been seeing recently — that means like last week or so even the beginning of this week — how brands are really scrambling to figure out what the best approach is to their customers, because people are not shopping right now. They’re just not spending money. This is not a time when people are investing in new clothes and new furniture, in travel and like whatever you would think that is, it is fuel of this modern economy, basically shut down. And they’re already what I call like winners and losers, because the winners are those who acknowledge the situation that their customers are in, put their customers first and their corporate spreadsheet second. It’s not an easy thing to do. They’re going to be layoffs, they’re going to be downsizing businesses, but then at this time, at least for the moment, is the most important thing to really acknowledge and empathize with what the customers are going through. And then there are the losers. The ones who are basically bombarding customers with sales deals and coupon codes. And so as you know, like Tresemme, for example, which is a haircare brand is like, oh, send us the photo of your hair styling for the chance to be featured. And I’m like, What? My quarantine hairstyling is like, Do you want my here? Because really, you know, so this is like the unbelievable tone deafness and unbelievable ignorance of what’s happening outside the confines of their company. And maybe that’s not really a reflection of reality. Maybe they’re really worried about that, but basically, their advertising does not reflect that. So that’s what I think on a on a micro level on an immediate level, what I’m seeing and on a macro level on a more long term level, I think we are we are going to see more and more brands, basically Practicing restrained practicing social responsibility and putting the values of generosity and kindness and also sort of social good at the forefront. Because we are seeing right now that society and economy are more intertwined than ever. The crisis like this are great truth tellers. They’re really exposing what is happening in society, how that impacts the economy and exposes the truths about organizations, what are the strengths, what are the weaknesses, exposes the truth about people who walk in the right side of the street, who doesn’t and so on. So I think this is a great opportunity to kind of capitalize on this newfound solidarity, if you will, and for brands to embrace that as one of the markers of aspiration.

Simone Cicero:
And what continuity do you see because so I think we are, especially these days, we are recording this interview, It’s the 27th of March, and we are of course, today it’s hard to not talk about Coronavirus. But I know that you are studying let’s say this evolution of branding since a long time and you were among the first to catch also the impact of phenomena like the collaborative economy or in general this marketplace evolution back to customer evolution, and what continuity do you see in terms of customers, perception of a brand and the very evolution of the brand itself in this world that I believe is not just changing now, maybe now it’s changing faster, but it was changing already. Right?

Ana Andjelic:
Well, of course, I mean, it’s been changing for the past, I don’t know 20 years and in the past 10 years with the emergence of Direct To Consumer (DTC) brand, they’re sort of rapidly all this sort of accelerated, if you will, maybe the past five years when you had more of those who just have an online presence that they introduced their own aesthetic, their own taste regimes, all of a sudden we all wanted to have like beautiful cookware and a nice spatula and you know, like a beautiful piece of luggage. You know, that’s like the entire aesthetic, the entire taste that they introduced. But more importantly, what they introduced in terms of brand strategy and brand behavior is to put customers at your center. Gather as much data as you can organize your entire company around customers and their behavior, like have a very clear laser focus and for your target groups and offer them aspiration that goes beyond just product but goes also in content in creating a community in smart cultural collaborations if you rate was going on in the world overall. So I think they introduced that if the consumer is not a type of company, it’s actually overall brand building practice, the way I see that, so I think that was the most sort of dramatic change happen because all of a sudden, you had a really big difference between the legacy brands and their behavior in marketing and brand strategy and these modern brands.

Simone Cicero:
And doesn’t it sound like the genie is out of the bottle? I mean, once we witness this power shift, between the brand and the customer, let’s say which is normal, not even a consumer anymore, because maybe it’s not about consuming anymore. So the question that I have is, now that these genies out of the bottle what does it change further that so you know, the power shift doesn’t stop there. Maybe the customers now will take over more functions traditionally, you know, that traditionally would be provided by the organization by the brand if I think about it. I don’t know a simple example which could be Airbnb, so you have a company whose brand is essentially represented mostly by people that are not employees. I think, need, you know, are trying to build their brand and their stories by incentivizing their users and the producer on the producer side and on the supply side to somehow represent the brand. So do you have any thoughts about that?

Ana Andjelic:
Let me see, if I understood correctly, you’re basically saying that brands are using their customers to build a brand?

Simone Cicero:
Somehow, especially if we think about the transition between the traditional company which has just a consumer or I would say a customer and these more two sided brands that organize markets instead of providing solutions. So at the end of the day, the brand somehow is embodied by the users and especially by the user from the supply side of the marketplace.

Ana Andjelic:
Sure and I think that we are seeing like we’ve been seeing recently I think that what you’re describing has always somewhat been the case like consumers would never be really passive recipients, you know, they always like use products, because it’s aligned with how they perceive themselves or how they want to position themselves in the world or what social signals they want to give, but it was also a lot, obviously, about price and ability and depending on the category, the consumer activity was more or less emphasized. What we’re seeing now in a greater sort of or as a brand building strategy a greater go to brand building strategy is the rise of so called “fan made brands” and the fan made brands are those that are what you just described, basically the entire brand is its fans. So for example, when you have Glossier as a brand, it’s basically a platform, if you will, for all the community activity that is happening around the product. And products are very simple. They’re just few of them, or at least it was at the beginning when the community emerged. They’re nothing special. That’s not the best product. It’s cheap, so anyone can have it. What is the value proposition of that brand is that anyone can have something like a soapbox, proverbial soapbox and a megaphone to talk about their own beauty routines to talk about their own preferences to share their own locks. That’s the entire premise of the brand, which is basically to nurture a community and we are seeing more and more of these brands who are choosing to go more slowly and sustainably like Rapha cycling brand or Track Smith running brand, or outdoor voices even before it sort of went through the crisis with a CEO leaving and so on, also had very like, clear who this community is, almost as political scientist Benedict Anderson said imagined communities to describe rise of nationalism in the 19th century is like the group of people who share the same values, purpose, taste, who don’t know each other, but they’re also united under sharing the same interest. So I think like that’s a must now, like having a strong community these days, is something that’s going to distinguish in already differentiating brands among themselves. And that’s something that legacy brands don’t have, unless they’re Nike, unless they’re Harley Davidson or Patagonia has it.

Simone Cicero:
One reflection that this comes, you know, if I project this evolution more in the future more forward looks like we are moving from a consumer that in the last 10 years, I would say a customer that the last 10 years has been required to be much more engaged in the the story and in the process and in the product itself. No? So, can we imagine that in the future this process and this trend goes more forward, you know, basically asking for, for customers to be engaged in, actively participating in creating the experience, you know, for example, if I think about sustainability, you know, we can think about customers that suddenly are required to maybe use products in a different way. I mean, you know, for example, recycling them or you know, recycling at least part of the packaging that they use or part of the ingredients. So they don’t receive any more consumable product that they just consume and then throw into the bean, but they are much more involved in the process. So that if, for example, if we need to recycle parts of the product, they need to ship it back. So to what extent this narrative of user experience will be overcome in the future?

Ana Andjelic:
Well, I think that goes back to what I said at the beginning, what is the social role of brands. What is that social service, public service role of brands? And I think that brands are very powerful mechanisms of introducing social contagion and behavior contagion, if you will, because in sustainability for example, when you see if our neighbors have solar panels, we are more likely to need to install a solar panel ourselves. So you basically are very susceptible to imitation and are very susceptible to peer pressure. And I think that brands that are already having a community can exert a lot of that peer pressure by inspiring the community leaders, and even individual non remarcable, individuals within to do what other people are doing for the greater good. And you see that also in food trends, or now everyone is a vegan now everyone is using and cleanses and so on. So we like to do a lot of what other people do, we don’t want to be left out. But it also like it signals to others, our own virtue and that our own virtue if we perceive ourselves as someone who cares about sustainability, we are more likely to actually engage in a political more systemic action for voting for more sustainable policies and so on. And that’s exactly what I meant when I said that brands have a more important social role rather than previously just an economic role.

Stina Heikkila:
So I was thinking when you were talking about this social responsibility of brands and, you know, targeting these communities and in somehow creating tribes, and I was thinking about…

Ana Andjelic:
Tribes, no, no, no, I said, it’s not creating tribes. It’s having different taste communities. But I think that tribes are somewhat different because they are basically just, they’re, they’re more an offline thing and they’re more like us versus them. When you have a taste community, it’s more like Netflix. You can belong to a lot of different taste communities at different times. It’s more a network rather than a group.

Stina Heikkila:
Ah ok. So my reflection was also about the role of the brand in creating the narrative that attracts then a community. So, sorry for putting the wrong terms in the conversation.

Ana Andjelic:
No it’s not, it’s much easier, easier to go back to tribes. But I’m just conscious that it doesn’t capture the complexity of the content marketing, because marketing to tribes is very easy. You just dial in the message and you try to get them. It’s now you have to, like consider this whole network of different communities. And the fact that a single person can be like three or four, belong to three or four taste communities. So the way you communicate to them is very different based on the content you’re putting forward. There’s just that but of course you use something that everyone is using, so it’s fine.

Stina Heikkila:
Yeah, so my question actually was around. So if you have this role of the brand, very actively trying to understand the consumers, and you also talked about this, like collecting data and so on. I was wondering if you have, what your reflections are on artificial intelligence and how, you know, the combination of how brands are using that, and how do you create a trust with your audience, when you might automize some of this reading of their behaviors? Is that clear?

Ana Andjelic:
Can you just simplify if you can, please?

Stina Heikkila:
Yeah, I was wondering, you know, how if sometimes if you get for example, a chatbot, and maybe you as a brand, you’re trying to create a very personalized experience and not you know, empathizing with your customers. So I wonder if you have any reflection, you know how to balance that between using technology to make it easier to interact with your community, but not losing out on this very personal, empathetic side.

Ana Andjelic:
Right. So it’s a great question. And that’s something that I think like I covered a few years ago when I was thinking in terms of hospitality. How to utilize the best of humans with the best of technology and how AI is excellent for crunching big data and really speeding up the process of personalization and customization of service. But the last mile always needs to be human. So not a chatbot there is a reason why chatbots are not widely applicable even in places that make a lot of sense. When you say when you go online for your telecom company or something you know, you’re talking to a bot and that can go get you only so far, for the initial introduction. When you think about luxury hospitality as a blueprint, you have that white glove service and a white glove service is so useful. And so sort of the value is because it is always flexible. It’s empathetic, and it’s anticipatory one step ahead or whatever you need. And that is where AI can play an unbelievably big role because it can detect patterns. And it can summarize a lot of data very quickly. However, how the way that it is delivered needs to be delivered by a human so you have the best combination of what is the human touch with what technology can provide.

Stina Heikkila:
Okay, thank you.

Simone Cicero:
Great, great reflections. So I’ll try to articulate my question in a way that is understandable because sometimes when we talk about these things, the reflections that we do are so deep, that is sometimes hard to articulate but, you know, you launched recently a newsletter called the Sociology of Business. And I’m a big fan of it. And that reminded me of some reflections that a couple of older friends that I’m working with. We’ve been doing it for a few years already when they launched the project called Societing. So there’s this conversation about the evolution of marketing into something new, and the evolution of business into something new. So, suddenly, there is the potential that we will need in the future to go much beyond what, what is consumerism, and moving into, essentially, you know, letting the citizens, the participants, the customers to become much more active in organizing, so it’s like, you know, the concept of the industrial organization, providing everybody with solutions is there then we are moving into into a new concept of organizing that is much more about people and institutions being created by people, by organizations on a small scale on, a distributed scale. So, the shape of the company, the shape of the organization so far has been moving from the monolith of the industrial age into these marketplaces and direct to customer and big platforms, but many see in the future, a further transformation into something much more distributed, much more, I would say, similar to a language or a protocol then to a formal organization, no. So in this evolution, I think my impression is that we want to keep the brand, the capacity to create brands, and not necessarily the consumerism of the industrial age. So, do you have any reflection of how our understanding of creating brands and narratives and storytelling will be transforming in line with these big transformations that we are seeing in the background in terms of cultural evolution or sustainability or related crisis as well? So how is it changing the practice of creating brands and stories in this new perspective?

Ana Andjelic:
So in terms of the brands, the brand storytelling I think overall is something that you always have no matter what is happening because brands are created to tell stories in order to humanize selling at the end. And to go move beyond transactions and to promise people “Oh, if you only buy this product, you’re going to be younger, you’re going to be prettier, you’re going to look more accomplished or you’re going be smarter and you know, you’re going to be more popular”. So they’re always that promise of some other version of ourselves that brand used to entice with products. And I think in the past, however, we were always moved by brands towards like, buy more and more and more and more and more of this, if you buy more of our products, you’ll be, you know, smarter, you’re going to be more accomplished. So there’s always this accumulation of things and like entire consumer society that is built around that promise of brands of bigger is better, and more is more. What we’re seeing now it’s almost like flipping the script because that sort of behavior, a brand of individuals, really brought us the climate crisis. More airline miles does not mean that you’re more accomplished as we’re all seeing right now that like the others are stuck at home, they realize that yes, we can connect virtually we don’t really need to travel that much. So that we should use this current crisis to see what behaviors are really detrimental for our planet in terms of climate, and then what are detrimental for us because what we are seeing is like being super busy, always doing something, always being on social media, always posting, it’s detrimental for our mental health, for our emotional health, for our social health, how we connect with others, what we prioritize, and I think that is very big role that brands had in terms of the narratives that they were putting forward. They were creating narratives of aspiration, that you have to travel all the time, accumulate social media, likes, accumulate airline miles. So now they have a big role of flipping that script, flipping that story, that narrative, and turning into something that’s more socially responsible, it’s more human. And I think that is where the storytelling is going next really, in becoming more human more attuned with how people behave, what they really need, rather, what capitalism needs, if you will.

Simone Cicero:
And to build on these, my feeling sometimes is that so far, let’s say that the status of you know, status or in general, I would say, the story of, you know, the studying of being appreciated for certain, you know, capabilities or only in some sort of gutes or and or, you know, the actually the person or status has been pretty much defined top down, you know, so the main story was pretty much common or in the industrial age, we pretty used to mainstream idea of success let’s say and what I feel these days is that what we’ve been witnessing in the last few years is that there’s a lot more epistemological complexity in you know now that we are understanding that the world is super interconnected and maybe we’re not just going to solve everything with science and nobody understands what’s really happening and so pointer microscopic viruses, all over the world, is stopping economic activity and putting into question everything. I think this is just an expression, or in general, much more broader complexity and our failure as societies to let’s say define top down what is the right behavior at least, you know, for Western society because we could have a conversation about China for example. So what is your feeling in terms of developing these personalities so basically consumers being now responsible to develop their own ways to be in the modern world and their own ways to relate with consuming and buying products or building their own, or creating, their own organizations to be much more active in, you know, showing up in the world and choosing what to be and how to behave.

Ana Andjelic:
I think this is a great question. And I think that’s what sort of like brings us back what we talked a little bit earlier about the social and behavioral contagion when it comes to sustainability or food, how we exert pressures on each other how that pressure is now going laterally, and how we adopt behaviors that other people have because we saw it on our Instagram feed, we saw it on internet, you know, like you’re seeing it, it’s not anymore like this mass media images that you’re like, aspired to. That’s why I insisted on taste communities versus tribes, because inspiration is everywhere. And we have the opportunity to combine our own aspirations. Maybe I’m really into sustainability, but I’m also into fashion. So how I’m going to combine those two things, I’m going to buy sustainable fashion, but I’m also what else am I going to do in a sense? So I think we are influencing each other, we have the means to influence, we always influence each other. But I think now it’s more visible. And that’s why trends move so fast, because influences come and go and spread and then they are contained. So in a sense, what you’re seeing more is that the role of brands is to sort of tap into that mood that is already happening, what people are already talking about, what people how people are already starting to behave, and to amplify certain behaviors. For example, sustainability or kindness or generosity or community towards others, or, for example, being a better runner going from really basic stuff. So that’s one way to do that. And the other is to really look at what are those subcultures where the trends are spreading. Who are those mega creatives for those like people who are really maybe creating new trends or who are maybe amplifying in a big way to transit the role of the chaperoning because as you see, you don’t have any more it girls. Every girl can become an” It girl” in their own community and that can then be amplified and so on. So I think that is the role of brands to really recognize the complexity of that social dynamic, and to sort of shape that social dynamic. Their marketing needs to become almost sociology, almost the analysis of like, Oh, what is it? What are the social networks called to behave? How do I use it myself? How do you amplify certain things? How do I dial down things and so on.

Stina Heikkla:
And I just want to follow up. It’s a bit of a tangent, I don’t know if it’s easy to answer, probably not. But sometimes from a global perspective, now we have this kind of inequality between places in the world. So even if we can see this trend going on in the West, I wonder about emerging economies. And if you think that we can witness the same kind of aspirations, even in places that are less materially developed.

Ana Andjelic:
I think this is a really important point that you bring. And I think that you’re having unbelievably big divide between the developed countries and developing countries because when you see like in terms of awareness of the climate crisis in the countries that experienced outcomes of that, like India or Australia with bushfires or California, I mean California is developed and Australia also. Where people have experienced the impact of climate change and climate crisis are more likely to do something about it or to be aware that that’s happening. In developed countries all of us who haven’t experienced that directly, now we’re for the first time experiencing a global hardship, are not so prime, not too sensitive to sort of react. Oh, you know, like the climate crisis is happening here. You know, it’s a terrible thing because humans are not wired to respond well to very distant threats or threats that are happening farther away. So my hope is that this current pandemic is actually going to make us all more aware of the fragility of our societies.

Stina Heikkila:
Yeah, thank you. I share your hope.

Simone Cicero:
You know more or less as we approach this, I would like to ask you this last question basically. So, as Stina made the point of these de-universalized narratives and basically not everything is Western. So, we also need to be factoring all these things. But my last question for you would be, if you think about, you know, you mentioned for example, this speed, this needs to be much faster, and these need to be much more able to say my impression to also be able to capture trends and stories, let’s say, at the local level instead of a global level. So it’s like much less global conversations from a certain point of view, and much more localized conversations about brands, for example. So what do you think, in terms of organizational structures that companies need to develop, to be able to cope with these fragmentation of storytelling, this fragmentation of branding?

Ana Andjelic:
Well, I think that it’s not, I mean, again, like don’t think about it as fragmentation. Think about it as a collection of niches. Again, think about it in terms of network and see how all those niches are connected because they are all connected, you don’t really have the subcultures anymore, like any subculture is also influenced by global culture and any global culture is influenced by something that happens in Tajikistan you know? Because everything is connected, you can see what are the local trends that are getting amplified on a global level. And also like the local ones that are taking whatever is happening, like 7000 miles away and interpreting it and appropriating it for their own local place. When you see that, like in Japan, you see that in the United States, you see the influence of Japanese way of doing things like you have omotenashi or Kenstugi or Wabi Sabi, it’s everywhere now. But it’s always appropriated, adopted for the Western culture or what you have seen in Japan is like with the blue denim, how they appropriated even the 50s prep’s look and so now apply that, or even with Vetements and Demna Gvasalia. How he took looks from his Georgian, Eastern European childhood and put them on a global stage. So I think it’s a two way street. And it’s better to think about it as a collection of niches than one mass market.

Simone Cicero:
Well, definitely this resonates a lot with our understanding goals of this platform economy as a way, as something that was born to actually make these niches possible somehow. So Ana , thanks very much for this illuminating conversation of branding. Is that something that you want to add before we wrap up? Something that you believe people really need to think about when we think when they think about branding in these crazy times?

Ana Andjelic:
Well, I think that, again, the beginning is also the end. And I hope that this crisis makes us all smarter, that it makes us all more socially aware, that it makes us all more socially responsible. Because we see that in a global world, contagion can spread very quickly and that we also need to then think about how we can create behavioral and social contagion, how we can all be more responsible and towards each other at the top. And I think the big, big, big thing for brands for after all of this is over not to forget, for all of us, not to forget what we are going through right now. But to really use it to do better in this world, to be more human, to be more generous. And this is not just a fluffy talk. It’s really you’re seeing right now that brands and its economic entities cannot operate separately from what is going on in the world. And they really do have a responsibility to flip that script, to flip that narrative of mindless consumption and to inspire us to become some people, to kind of like put aspiration in front of all of us that is more sustainable, that is more socially viable.

Simone Cicero:
Well, it’s great to end this conversation on this note of embeddedness, and systemic, viewing systemically not the theory of branding and the practice of branding. So thanks very much, It was illuminating and thanks for your time.

Ana Andjelic:
Thank you very much for your great questions, both of you. And I hope this was useful. And I look forward to following your work. I’m a big fan of your work. And I look forward to following what you’re going to come up with next, that we’re going to extend all these conversations you’re having with this podcast.

Simone Cicero:
Ana, do you want to add something on where people can find the most of your work?

Ana Andjelic:
Well, thank you for asking that. And I have a weekly newsletter every Tuesday morning (morning in New York time), called the Sociology of Business. If you just Google it, you can find that online but you can also find me on Twitter with my name, on Instagram. So these are all ways to find about my thinking, about my writing, about my work with brands. Just put my name in Google. That is the fastest way to find all of these things. So thank you for asking that Simone.

Simone Cicero:
And I totally suggest your newsletter. I’m enjoying it every week. Thanks very much again and talk to you soon.

Ana Andjelic:
Talk to you soon and thanks a lot for having me. It was wonderful to hear from you again